Comments on: Where Art Thou? http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/language/where-art-thou/ With all the new translation technologies, things have gotten easier, and more complicated. Wed, 08 Feb 2012 03:46:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ken http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/language/where-art-thou/comment-page-1/#comment-4096 Ken Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:17:56 +0000 http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/?p=1126#comment-4096 Patricia, what makes "you" a sort of lie to a single soul? Is that question a Quaker koan? Very interesting comments from everyone. Thanks. "Don’t thou thou me. Thou, thou them as thous thee!" Now, that's ye olde fighting words.... I hope you gave as good as you got, Armando... Patricia, what makes “you” a sort of lie to a single soul? Is that question a Quaker koan?

Very interesting comments from everyone. Thanks.

“Don’t thou thou me. Thou, thou them as thous thee!” Now, that’s ye olde fighting words…. I hope you gave as good as you got, Armando…

]]> By: Patricia Hillseth http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/language/where-art-thou/comment-page-1/#comment-4051 Patricia Hillseth Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:16:55 +0000 http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/?p=1126#comment-4051 The Reformation complicated things in English by the liturgical language of the mid-15th century Prayer Book, and the decision of the 1611 Bible translators to use an archaic English based largely on Tyndale’s translation of 1525. This not only preserved the obsolete nominative (subject form) “ye” in the second person plural (which came to be so beloved of Victorian hymn writers) but persisted with the second singular when the congregation addressed the priest (“and with thy spirit”) but even, out of an almost preposterous regard for the literal meaning of the original Hebrew, had their Old Testament kings addressed as “thou.” Then the Quakers, formed in the 1650s, decided that “you” to a single soul was both a sort of lie, but also contrary to their doctrine of universal equality before God. The Reformation complicated things in English by the liturgical language of the mid-15th century Prayer Book, and the decision of the 1611 Bible translators to use an archaic English based largely on Tyndale’s translation of 1525. This not only preserved the obsolete nominative (subject form) “ye” in the second person plural (which came to be so beloved of Victorian hymn writers) but persisted with the second singular when the congregation addressed the priest (“and with thy spirit”) but even, out of an almost preposterous regard for the literal meaning of the original Hebrew, had their Old Testament kings addressed as “thou.” Then the Quakers, formed in the 1650s, decided that “you” to a single soul was both a sort of lie, but also contrary to their doctrine of universal equality before God.

]]> By: Armando Lopez http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/language/where-art-thou/comment-page-1/#comment-4050 Armando Lopez Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:11:45 +0000 http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/?p=1126#comment-4050 The cut off point between “you” and “thou” varies from language to language, and from one social class to another. In 18th century English the growth of social pretentiousness (which by the 1860s would even substitute initials for the implied intimacy of first names) was allied to the fear of being mistaken for a Quaker to push “thou” further and further down the social scale. By 1800 Miss Austen’s circle had dropped it entirely among themselves, except when reading or writing poetry, but it was still common among their servants, especially those of the elder generation (see, e.g. Samuel Butler’s “Way of All Flesh”). And it persisted outside South East England. Evacuated in 1944 to the large provincial city of Stoke on Trent, my ritual beating up on my first day at my new school was preceded by the announcement “I’ll fight thee” in the second personal singular of contempt. Unwanted linguistic familiarity is still rebuked in parts of Yorkshire with “Don’t thou thou me. Thou, thou them as thous thee.” Outside England the second singular survived longest in the Western Caribbean English of the islands of Providence and Saint Andrew, ceded by the 1781 Treaty of Paris to what is now Colombia. The cut off point between “you” and “thou” varies from language to language, and from one social class to another. In 18th century English the growth of social pretentiousness (which by the 1860s would even substitute initials for the implied intimacy of first names) was allied to the fear of being mistaken for a Quaker to push “thou” further and further down the social scale. By 1800 Miss Austen’s circle had dropped it entirely among themselves, except when reading or writing poetry, but it was still common among their servants, especially those of the elder generation (see, e.g. Samuel Butler’s “Way of All Flesh”). And it persisted outside South East England. Evacuated in 1944 to the large provincial city of Stoke on Trent, my ritual beating up on my first day at my new school was preceded by the announcement “I’ll fight thee” in the second personal singular of contempt. Unwanted linguistic familiarity is still rebuked in parts of Yorkshire with “Don’t thou thou me. Thou, thou them as thous thee.” Outside England the second singular survived longest in the Western Caribbean English of the islands of Providence and Saint Andrew, ceded by the 1781 Treaty of Paris to what is now Colombia.

]]> By: Jose Flores http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/language/where-art-thou/comment-page-1/#comment-4049 Jose Flores Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:21:42 +0000 http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/?p=1126#comment-4049 Well I know the 1610 translation of the Bible uses it as well as--ye.I am inclined to think the pronouns are much like formal and informal as in many other languages. Spanish-tú and usted. German-du and Sie,Dutch-U and jij, French,tu and vous. In English we now use the informal-you for everyone.When I was younger in church the older formal pronoun was used in prayers and it still is in some churches. Well I know the 1610 translation of the Bible uses it as well as–ye.I am inclined to think the pronouns are much like formal and informal as in many other languages. Spanish-tú and usted. German-du and Sie,Dutch-U and jij, French,tu and vous. In English we now use the informal-you for everyone.When I was younger in church the older formal pronoun was used in prayers and it still is in some churches.

]]> By: Edward Leners http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/language/where-art-thou/comment-page-1/#comment-4048 Edward Leners Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:57:21 +0000 http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/?p=1126#comment-4048 Right, Quaker people often still use "thee" and "thy" (although very rarely "thou") when speaking to another person of their same religion. Otherwise, those forms had become largely obsolete by the 18th century. Right, Quaker people often still use “thee” and “thy” (although very rarely “thou”) when speaking to another person of their same religion.
Otherwise, those forms had become largely obsolete by the 18th century.

]]> By: Janene http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/language/where-art-thou/comment-page-1/#comment-4047 Janene Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:48:49 +0000 http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/?p=1126#comment-4047 Thou and thee was the singular form and you and ye was the plural. In common with many European languages, the singular was used for God, family, children and dogs and the plural was considered the polite form to use for strangers and those in (earthly) authority. The thou form gradually passed out of use between the 17th and 19th centuries. Printing speeded its demise because the thorn letter used to denote th was replaced by a y. Thou lives on in the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer. It has just about died out even in regional speech. In Yorkshire, it now only tends to be used in figures of speech. Thou and thee was the singular form and you and ye was the plural. In common with many European languages, the singular was used for God, family, children and dogs and the plural was considered the polite form to use for strangers and those in (earthly) authority.
The thou form gradually passed out of use between the 17th and 19th centuries. Printing speeded its demise because the thorn letter used to denote th was replaced by a y. Thou lives on in the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer. It has just about died out even in regional speech. In Yorkshire, it now only tends to be used in figures of speech.

]]> By: blahblahblahhhhhh http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/language/where-art-thou/comment-page-1/#comment-4012 blahblahblahhhhhh Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:45:43 +0000 http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/?p=1126#comment-4012 I believe that "thou" and "thee" are perfectly plausible and usable in everyday conversation, and can be used when speaking to whomever - -whenever. They are also most definitely NOT used just in sentences where a "shall" or "shall not" follows. I believe that “thou” and “thee” are perfectly plausible and usable in everyday conversation, and can be used when speaking to whomever – -whenever. They are also most definitely NOT used just in sentences where a “shall” or “shall not” follows.

]]> By: Tweets that mention Where Art Thou? : : Translation Guy -- Topsy.com http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/language/where-art-thou/comment-page-1/#comment-4007 Tweets that mention Where Art Thou? : : Translation Guy -- Topsy.com Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:10:54 +0000 http://www.1-800-translate.com/TranslationBlog/?p=1126#comment-4007 [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Daniel Feingold and Terry Denesha, La Rassegna. La Rassegna said: ► Where Art Thou?: My recent post on the Russian language got me thinking about the familiar vs. the formal as use... http://bit.ly/djJa6W [...] [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Daniel Feingold and Terry Denesha, La Rassegna. La Rassegna said: ► Where Art Thou?: My recent post on the Russian language got me thinking about the familiar vs. the formal as use… http://bit.ly/djJa6W [...]

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